I enjoy debates, I really do. It's like fencing. The cut-and-thrust, the dancing about, the parries and blocks and ripostes... I can count on one hand the number of times I've been actually convinced by one, though. Paradigm shift comes through other vehicles.
I think this is because debates themselves are like sports games. They set up an artificial and temporary (and hopefully playful) antagonism, like in a football game. What Bears fan will, after the recent SuperBowl, exclaim, "What an amazing team the Colts are!" None, of course. Besides, I don't think convincing is the actual purpose of debate. Debate is a place to give your own beliefs a test-drive. It's where I find the flaws in my arguments, the weak points, the sketchy bases, and know where to work when I reconstruct my argument for next time.
And so I thank you, faithful reader, for participating in these debates with me. I enjoy them muchly. *brings sword blade up in front of his face* Combatants, I salute you!
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Let's be glad that none of our debates have gone the route of the Democratic Presidential candidates... (quote from Nedra Pickler of the AP).
'The Obama campaign declined to denounce Geffen or give back any
money but issued its own statement in response... "We aren't going to get in the middle of a disagreement between the
Clintons and someone who was once one of their biggest supporters,"
Obama communications director Robert Gibbs said in a statement. "It is
ironic that the Clintons had no problem with David Geffen when he was
raising them $18 million and sleeping at their invitation in the
Lincoln bedroom."'Oooh! BURN!
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On a related note, I was looking over some quotes from the days when insults had class. Some of my favorites are:
"I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure."
-- Clarence Darrow
"He has never been known to use a word that might send a reader to the dictionary."
-- William Faulkner (about Ernest Hemingway)
"Poor Faulkner. Does he really think big emotions come from big words?"
-- Ernest Hemingway (about William Faulkner)
"Thank you for sending me a copy of your book; I'll waste no time reading it."
-- Moses Hadas
"He has no enemies, but is intensely disliked by his friends."
-- Oscar Wilde
"I am enclosing two tickets to the first night of my new play, bring a friend... if you have one."
-- George Bernard Shaw to Winston Churchill
"Cannot possibly attend first night, will attend second...
if there is one."
-- Winston Churchill, in response
A shame that the days of the witty insult have passed. Nowadays a "F--- you!" is considered to be intelligent and clever. (Wow, I'm starting to sound like Einar.)
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And, that segues right into the next
DISCUSSION.What constitutes profanity? Is it limited to the six or seven "curse words" that some segments of society still hold to be taboo? (The d-word, the h-word, the b-word, the other b-word, the s-word, the a-word and the f-bomb.)
Some Christians say that even the substitutionary words like "crap" or "darn" are profanity because "The Lord knows what you mean," that it's intent that matters. But if that's the case, even yelling something like "Praise the Lord!" when I bang my finger in a car door would be profanity if my intent was to vent my pain and frustration.
IS it the intent to vent pain and frustration that is wrong? Or is it the word itself that is wrong? Or neither, something else?
What is it about, say, the s-word that is wrong? Why should one not say shit but "excrement" or "fecal matter" is okay? Why are Saxon words profanity but Latinate words okay?
What exactly
does the Bible say about profanity? What constitutes a "curse"? What constitutes "corrupt communication?"
This DISCUSSION is rated PG-13 for probable use of strong language for exemplary purposes.
DISCUSS!
Comments (73)
Dude, those insults are so stinkin' classy. Where did you find them? I would love to read more about them.
*******
Regarding cursing:
Curse /kɜrs/ - cursed or curst, curs·ing.
–noun
1. the expression of a wish that misfortune, evil, doom, etc., befall a person, group, etc.
2. a formula or charm intended to cause such misfortune to another.
3. the act of reciting such a formula.
4. a profane oath; curse word.
5. an evil that has been invoked upon one.
6. the cause of evil, misfortune, or trouble.
7. something accursed.
8. Slang. the menstrual period; menstruation (usually prec. by the).
9. an ecclesiastical censure or anathema.
–verb (used with object)
10. to wish or invoke evil, calamity, injury, or destruction upon.
11. to swear at.
12. to blaspheme.
13. to afflict with great evil.
14. to excommunicate.
–verb (used without object)
15. to utter curses; swear profanely.
Using this definition, which I believe still maintains the spirit of the word "curse" as it is used today, although it is oft times misused when describing particular words, ie. "curse words," I believecurses are wishes of misfortune upon someone or someones.
Therefore, to say "F- you, f-ing mother f-er," even when done in your best Samuel L. Jackson impersonation, is a curse in the truest spirit of the word.
However, to say "crap" or even "Holy crap," or other derivations of the word for excrement (not necessarily human), is not so much a curse, as there is no object of which you are cursing or condeming or casting misfortune upon.
Next time, I will discuss the word profane and profanity.
First, a distinction between profanity and crude language.
Profanity uses commonplace words to suggest horrible things. Profanity is offensive because of its meaning within a given context.
Crude language refers to lexical items that are considered impolite within a given culture. The phonological shape of the word itself is offensive, regardless of context.
For example, "God damn you" is profanity. The lexical items damn, you, and God are all harmless on their own, and The New York Times will run any of those three words without thinking twice. But the meaning of the phrase "God damn you" is profane.
But the word fuck is crude language. The New York Times won't print the word in any context, even a context of an editorial telling children not to say fuck. The actual phonological shape of the word is considered to be an affront. Some people blush just reading this word in the dictionary.
As regards crude language, it's cross-linguistically commonplace for certain ideas to have both crass and polite words, and these often have to do with the word's etymology-- the crass version will come from a low-prestige language/dialect and the "refined" word from a high-prestige language/dialect. So in Russian, for example, there's a very rich and elaborate trove of crude language, borrowed almost exclusively from Tatar. In English, crude words generally come from Saxon.
Crude words are crude because they're considered to be crude-- it's all circular. fuck is cruder than intercourse because the French invaders said so, 'bout a thousand years ago. And so, when people are trying to offend, they choose fuck instead of intercourse. But it's possible to say astonishing and appallingly profane things without actually using the verboten lexicon.
Generally, profane language tends to use crude lexical items, and people who are willing to use crude language are more likely to have fewer qualms about profane language.
Question: if you're mad at your car because it's not running well, is it worse to say "Fuck this shit" (crude vocabulary but nonsensical meaning) or to say, "God damn this spawn of Satan" (profane meaning but no crude vocabulary) ?
My grandmother, now, is quite fluent in W. C. English: "shooky," "pucky," "hocky," "crapolla..." Need I continue? I remember telling her, as a wee girl, to stop saying those things. Perhaps I have always been...what is the opposite of earthy?
Buddha gazelle made excellent points. I cannot add or take away anything from what was said.
Jalixx3: What do you use for exclamations?
^Russo, I think both phrases have negative intent. Therefore, I consider them both to be bad. However, i consider the second to be worse because it also drags the name of God into it. If it were just "Damn this spawn of satan," it would not cut me nearly as deep as it does with God involved.
When I need an exclamation, I usually say:
"Good Golly" or "Oh my Golly" when I'm surprised. I really like the geek/nerd effect of saying it.
and
"Son of a butt monkey" when I'm angry. The intent is bad, I know, but it also sounds funny enough to let off steam and cause a few laughs. If other people laugh, I ease up. Heck, if I laugh, I ease up.
Chris: In the light of this debate, to me, curses are anything you utter out of malice with the intent to harm someone. However, I have also done a short course on curses (well, actually, it was part of a larger course on inner healing and deliverance), and spiritually, they extend way beyond the simple definition I just gave. You can curse yourself too unknowingly, if you keep uttering words like "over my dead body", "I wish I was dead" or "I am going to lose this baby."
But back to the discussion on hand, I think profanity or "cuss words" should be out of our conversations. They are crude, insulting, and unedifying.
As for using God's Name in our utterances, I think what matters more is the spirit behind it. For example, if you just got hit by a car and are mildy injured, and you go "Oh God!", and what you really meant was "God help me!", then I think that is more of a prayer. If however you use the Lord's Name to express your anger, frustration, etc, then that is misusing His Holy Name.
We once had a discussion about phrases like "Oh gee!" and "Oh gosh!" in my small group, cos one of my church leaders who did some study on this topic (and he did his seminary studies in America) was saying "gee" is kinda like a short form of "Jesus" and "gosh" is a modified way of pronouncing "God". So to him, these words are unacceptable too. I'm not too sure if what he says is really true cos I'm no linguist . But personally, I always go back to the spirit/intent behind using these words. Like I said, they can either be a prayer, or profanity.
Speaking of profanity, the Chinese language and its various dialects have some really colourful words which make some of these English words sound mild. I live in Singapore, so we are exposed not just to the profanity of English words, but those in our Southeast Asia culture as well. In fact, to be naughty, we sometimes learn only the profane words of other Chinese dialects (there are many Chinese dialects here in Singapore), just so that we know when we are being insulted.
I love your quotes, btw. They are so clever, filled with much of that dry English wit. One of my subscribers is from England, and she regularly quotes these things. Go check her site at www.xanga.com/MSB.
^ Jalixx3
The opposite of "earthy" is "heavenly."
^Son'joy: I meant "delicate."
^C'Russo: I'm not an exclamatory person, in general. I do sometimes use a traditional Southern interjection, though I draw the line at "Landsakes!" or "Lawsamercy!"
For arguments' sake, are we allowed to use "piss," "cunt," "pussy," "dick," and "hussy"?
kralyks: James Joyce didn't have any problem with several of those words.
does Romans chapter 14 figure into this topic of discussion at all? is this similar to the deal where if you think it's wrong for you to eat a certain thing, then it's wrong for you to eat it, but it's not wrong for me to eat it because i don't believe it's wrong for me? is regarding certain words similar to regarding certain days? can we say "Let not him that cusseth despise him that cusseth not; and let not him which cusseth not judge him that cusseth: for God hath received him"?
and when the game was over i said that the colts were the team that played better, not only that game, but all season, and that they deserved to win.
so... there.
um, okay. i will now be intelligent and read the comments on this and formulate a response.
oh, and i'd formerly heard the quote from faulkner, but never the response. thanks for that one.
^^ Possibly, aristarchus.
A further question: I've been thinking about this since my reading on Friday. I use profanity in my stories on occasion, if it's how I hear the dialogue in my head or if it better fits the rhythm of the narrative. Usually just the semi-nonsensical intensity expressers that are only curses by social agreement--"don't be an ass," "the pipes stank of shit"... It doesn't feel like it's me saying it, though... (An ethical question--if there's a curse in a story, is the character cursing or is the author cursing?)
It doesn't bother me. It's how it sounds in my head, it's that edge of realism. But I was talking to other Christians who feel differently on the matter, and now I'm almost bothered that it doesn't bother me... Should it bother me? It's not like I'm using the words myself... (Well, occasionally I slip and do--but that's not the point...)
What do y'all think?
I have a movie called The Ladykillers which I have watched with various friends. There is a character in it named Gawain who would be up to the challenge of composing a sentence entirely out of derivations of the f-word. At any rate, he seems to have little other vocabulary. At one point in the movie, there is a scene where about thirty elderly ladies-of-the-church are having a tea party. Suddenly, Gawain shows up at the door. Invariably, the friends I watch the movie with hold their breath there. Fortunately, Gawain does nothing but look confused. As one of my friends pointed out, "There is nothing he could say to those old ladies," the implication being "without offending them." He doesn't have any words for that.
It is interesting to observe, of course, but people are not characters like that, although some of my students aspire. One hopes that even if others are accustomed to their one-word vocabulary, they can rise above it if need be. I am not optimistic, though. When conversation is reduced to
Man, fuck it. That is some fucking shit.
No shit, man.
I can't believe that the conversationalists are truly paying attention, or doing anything other than making sounds to themselves. Not only is it sloppy, and nonsensical, but it is fatiguing and asymptotically vapid. If it has a purpose, it must only be to disturb nearby old ladies, which is a rather sad goal to have.
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/25970